Z/28 vs. Tunnel Port 302

[98SVT - was 06GT]

I should add that those things have open breathers on them and will spill on road race set ups.

The current use of a closed vent and a scrapper tank is good thinking but I don't know the issues that it has with any kind of endurance racing.

Most sanctioning bodies require the catch tanks to keep oil off the track. I wonder if that tube was added to easily add oil directly to the oil pan. I'm pretty sure dry sumps were not allowed at the time so probably not for that tank.

[shelbydoug]

I should add that those things have open breathers on them and will spill on road race set ups.

The current use of a closed vent and a scrapper tank is good thinking but I don't know the issues that it has with any kind of endurance racing.

Most sanctioning bodies require the catch tanks to keep oil off the track. I wonder if that tube was added to easily add oil directly to the oil pan. I'm pretty sure dry sumps were not allowed at the time so probably not for that tank.

I was thinking that also but here's the thing, the Mustang isn't "stock". With the numbers it put up, I'd suspect it is one of "Smokie's Specials". Whatever that tube is for kind of strongly suggests that there is no way it came off of anyone's assembly lines.

A Prosecuting Attorney, of which I am not, might even go as far as to suggest that it is PROOF. 

I would add, that if you were like me, and learned about these cars through publications like this, Smokey was still kind of a secret.

Bud Moore we knew something about and now that I mentioned it, who has more of a touch of making "Mountain Motors" then his shop?

I'd go with the very unlikely scenario of the Z being a 302 as well but 326/347/355's were around although kinda' expensive even for the time. They just recently have become pretty cheap to build.

You folks that have participated in magazine road tests have previously talked about the poetic license taken by your editors, out and out incompetency of some testers and flat out bribery laid on you by new sets of tires, free Taco Bell and maybe even Hurst girls? 

So I guess it is a "believe whatever you want thing"..."same as it ever was?"

[TA Coupe]

I don't think the car with the vent tube is a race car. Because it has a nice looking windshield, wiper reservoir tank and heater hoses Going back which I don't think a race car would have.

        Roy

[Side-Oilers]

So, if the Ford TP engines didn't make any significant power until 8000+ rpm, what ring & pinion would they have run, compared to what the Z28 used? (At the same track.)

Something crazy like 4.56? (Weren't the Camaros typically using 3.73s?)

Any lower than 4.56-ish, and me thinks the top speed would not have been bit much more than 110 mph.

(No, I didn't do an rpm to mph calculation, factoring tire height,etc.  It's just a Kentucky Windage guesstimate.)

[fthlflyer]

More original (unpublished) underhood Mustang photos from the shoot might certainly tell the story. 

Found some research from the Group 2 FB page: Based on the '67 team Shelby car, I now strongly suspect it's an oil catch can. Maybe not the plastic bottle version seen in the photo, but the same function.

[shelbydoug]

More original (unpublished) underhood Mustang photos from the shoot might certainly tell the story. 

Found some research from the Group 2 FB page: Based on the '67 team Shelby car, I now strongly suspect it's an oil catch can. Maybe not the plastic bottle version seen in the photo, but the same function.

Great find. I remember a quote, "the best place to hide anything is in plain sight".

All regular production 68 Mustangs had oil catch cans right?

Now I'm wondering who's shop that car was built in? I don't see any give away Kar Kraft signatures and exactly how many cubic inches it had? I'm thinking 326 more then likely just for the rpm's alone. 8,000 for a 347 is kind of pushing the envelope a little too much?


The one picture recently of the Tunnel Port on the pallet in Yunick's shop with the 65 water pump and balancer on it might be a hint?

4.33's have been quoted more then a few times with B2 cars. Back in the day I'm very sure that GM muscle cars with first gear 2.20 4 speed transmissions needed 4.88's to get the 1/4 times they are now associated with. That puts them right around 110 which for a small track like Lime Rock is about right.

The 2.32 Ford doesn't need that much. The formula that I was told by serious drag racers is that the product of the rear ratio and first gear of the transmission needs to fall between 11 and 14.
My experiences tend to agree with that formula. 3.89's and 3.91's therefore are not enough. That is partially why testing a GT350 stock with a 6,000 rpm limit isn't going to even brake 14's.


I don't know what OD of the tire is though which is also a factor.

With a non-drag racing slick and a road race tire, which would be smaller in diameter, the 4.33 starts to make sense though.


All this kinda puts serious doubt on the accuracy of the writer's coverage. Seems like most of this was either not know or seriously glossed over, but remember, they just wanted to sell the magazine issue and it all looked great on the cover sitting there on the news stand.

Now it just looks like an automotive version of 'Nessie, the Locness "monster". "I saw it...didn't you?"

[crossboss]

Lets put all of this 'speculation' to rest right now. 1-A well built Tunnel Port is no dog, and very reliable. 2-NO TP engine failed when Shelby built them, not Ford. 3-You don't need 4.56 gears. 4-I actually drove one with dual 4V carbs installed in a members 1966 Shelby GT-350. It had 3.50 gears, and drove off the line with no bogs, and had plenty of torque--actually better than a Boss 302! This TP was the 'street' version with the smaller valves. 5-I'm sure the camshaft installed was the key to all of this. 6-Both cars tested in the magazine were a 'prototype' (as was the Z/28) and not an actual T/A race car--I'm sure Smokey had his hand all over this Chevy. I'm confidant Ford's 'Experimental Garage', 'Shelby' and or 'Hollman & Moody' did on this Mustang also. 7- Most 'likely' both cars were not at a legal 5.0 litres/302 CID. IF Ford actually produced the TP for production, it would have had better street manners, and would not generate the test numbers the prototype did in the magazine.
Van and I can tell you magazine 'tests' are, well...not exactly factual. I will leave it at that.

[Side-Oilers]

Scott, I agree. 

I can only speak for myself that we never faked numbers while I was running Motor Trend.  That was my rule. We got the quickest times by having some of the top test drivers in the business. 

It was generally known in the business that some of our competitors tried different methods to be the quickest.

As far as the press getting "magic screwdriver" cars to test...yes, most probably, a lot of the time. Even if it's just a really thorough prep, or a blueprinting.   The paint quality and interior fitment is usually better than a comparable production car too.  (Ferraris and other ultra high end cars excepted, as they already received great paint & trim 99.5% of the time.)

I have no idea what any car magazine or TV show or YouTube channel is doing, these days. 

[Royce Peterson]

My friend lives in North Texas. He bought a new 1968 Z28 Camaro after returning from Vietnam, new in 1968. He still has it. It has headers, a roller cam, and 4.88 gears. Originally it had a 12 bolt posi. It still has that.

I drove the car a couple years ago. It's wicked fast, one of the fastest cars I have driven. It still has its original Marina Blue finish and original black interior. He doesn't care about much as he is 72 years old and does not go to many car shows.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Our HS auto shop teacher set up work experience programs with 5 of the local car dealers. Everyone of course wanted to work at Russ Davis Ford (and Gas Ronda) so he decided to hold a drawing. I got the Chevy dealer across the street working with the trans/rearend guy. The first 67 Z28 came off the transport and it was realized the UAW guy hadn't figured out how to install the Hurst shifter. I got tasked with setting it up and then the guy told me - you fixed it you test it - I took that as drive it over to school and do a few burnouts. When I got back the tune up guy grabbed it and put it on the rollers. It had almost 360 RWHP. He figured it was almost 425 at the crank. A few more than the insurance decal on the air cleaner that said 290 HP.
PS - I did spend a lot of time at Russ Davis. I was crewing on a Fuel Altered car and the driver Skip Burroughs was a wrench at Russ Davis. It was great being a fly on the wall while he and Gas were talking shop. He went on to be Gas' crew chief. The Altered had a BB Chevy and when the owner decided to go into Top Fuel the last pass for the car at Bakersfield it got a heavy dose of Hydrazine. It took them 20 minutes to clean up the track. The crank was in 3 pieces, the cam 5 even the injector manifold got tweaked when it lifted a head.

A little Hydrazine lesson for the kiddies: https://www.dragzine.com/news/flashback-friday-the-story-of-the-leathal-fuel-called-hydrazine/

[crossboss]

Our HS auto shop teacher set up work experience programs with 5 of the local car dealers. Everyone of course wanted to work at Russ Davis Ford (and Gas Ronda) so he decided to hold a drawing. I got the Chevy dealer across the street working with the trans/rearend guy. The first 67 Z28 came off the transport and it was realized the UAW guy hadn't figured out how to install the Hurst shifter. I got tasked with setting it up and then the guy told me - you fixed it you test it - I took that as drive it over to school and do a few burnouts. When I got back the tune up guy grabbed it and put it on the rollers. It had almost 360 RWHP. He figured it was almost 425 at the crank. A few more than the insurance decal on the air cleaner that said 290 HP.
PS - I did spend a lot of time at Russ Davis. I was crewing on a Fuel Altered car and the driver Skip Burroughs was a wrench at Russ Davis. It was great being a fly on the wall while he and Gas were talking shop. He went on to be Gas' crew chief. The Altered had a BB Chevy and when the owner decided to go into Top Fuel the last pass for the car at Bakersfield it got a heavy dose of Hydrazine. It took them 20 minutes to clean up the track. The crank was in 3 pieces, the cam 5 even the injector manifold got tweaked when it lifted a head.

A little Hydrazine lesson for the kiddies: https://www.dragzine.com/news/flashback-friday-the-story-of-the-leathal-fuel-called-hydrazine/

Awesome story, thanks for sharing! You guys were right in the mix of it. Unfortunately, I was born too late to see this stuff first hand...